An Electronic Debate on Vegetarianism

brendan,

nice web page. got to it because of you calculator pages. I'm a vegetarian and went to your meat manifesto. let me say so far i can see your pretty educated. But you just need a few things added to your head. First one of my reasons for not eating meat is that eating animals is not a good use of energy on this planet. think about it, why have another animal eat the plants for you then you eat it. So much energy is wasted by the animal when it walks around and other bodily functions. Why not get your food straight from the source. Doesn't America already hog up too many resources from other countries? Also I don't eat meat because of health reasons (fat, cancer). And yes, I sorta of think it is cruel. You observed my prejudice between plants and animals. Yet YOU don't observe your prejudice between humans and animals. let me guess, your counter-argument will be that of course we don't eat humans - cannabalism!? but why don't we say "of course we don't eat animals" like other cultures? why is cannibalism unaccepted but animal consumption accepted for you? anyway, how 'bout I bonk you on the head and throw you in the oven? I bet you wouldn't enjoy that. Anyway there is a difference between killing plants and animals. Plants haven't a nervous system, thus they don't feel pain. That is why I am for abortions up until the package of cells known as the embryo starts differentiating into nervous cells. i totally agree with your trendy categorization of vegetarians. I started about 3 years ago, and a wave was just picking up. I was excited that others would join the cause. However I became disgusted by my new eating habit when fuckin airheads did it for the reasons that other people had, or they wanted to be different, or a part of the 'in crowd'. However, this eating meat and 'i hate vegetarians' thing is getting just as trendy lately. it's a backlash to the previous wave of vegetarians i presume. Well I am getting tired and losing my train of thought (as it is 1am). I'd love to hear back from you, I will be completely open minded to your rebuttle, I'd love to learn a few things

Sure, I'd be more than happy to argue with you. You're completely right about that energy thing. It takes far more energy to raise a cow and eat it instead of going straight to the bottom of the chain and eating only plants. But what's the point of saving energy? We've got plenty of food here in the US, the only ones who would benefit from this are third world countries, and I sincerely doubt that we would send them all the surplus food we had if everyone started eating plants only. So, don't worry about it, there's plenty to go around no matter how much you eat. I've got no argument on the health thing either. I know many people who just don't eat red meat, but fish, chicken and turkey are just fine, they're not bad for you. Being omnivores, humans need the nutrients found in meat, and I'm not exactly sure on the specifics here, but there are some things you find in meat that you just can't find in plants.

I'm glad you picked up on the whole trendy thing too. Trendy people are the people who piss me off the most, and it seems that most of those heading towards the vegetarian movement are doing it just because its hip. I've noticed some backlash from this recently, with the punkers starting to put "eat meat" bumper stickers on their cars, but I'd still say that the vegetarian side is taking more people than the meat eating side.

Come on, you've got to see some difference between eating a cow and eating a human. All I'm saying is that its completely natural, just look in the wild. The bear, also an omnivore, occasionally tears up a poor deer. That's not going to stop any time soon. Instead of having to go out and hunt something down when we feel like a tasty meat snack, our food system is set up so all we have to do is go down to the store and buy one. This has resulted in the cow, which is essentially useless and couldn't survive a day in the wild. Being raised to die sure sucks, but if you think about it, that's not a whole lot different than being a deer, its going to die eventually as well, and I doubt few die from old age. Getting torn apart by a bear is going to hurt a whole lot more than getting clubbed in the head or whatever method the slaughter house is using.

And I don't think you can argue that plants are not affected by getting killed. Because they are biologically completely different, there is no nervous system, but there's no circulatory or skeletal system either. Plants may have something which they experience that is similar to pain. This takes us to a completely different argument, are plants conscious to what happens to them? There is no answer to this, if plants did have any sort of consciousness it might be of a completely different sort that there is no way for humans to understand. Besides, I could use the consciousness argument on animals. Are animals truly conscious? They respond to pain, but do they feel anything, or is this just some sort of automatic response?

Wow this was a long letter. But giving you a "you suck dick!" type of response would just be stupid. Write me back, tell me what you think.

Brendan,

Thanks for replying. I'm glad you understood my theory that it's a waste of energy to eat meat. I guess it's simply a difference of opinion on whether it is actually a problem. However, you say there isn't a point in saving energy, and there is more than enough to go around. I disagree, and even if I am wrong about my belief that there is an ecological energy crisis, why don't we just try to be more efficient anyway. Food would become even more cheaper, and no one would starve. With the population getting out of control, how about we start perfecting our methods of trying to feed as many people as possible as efficiently as possible. More importantly, much of our beef (i don't know how much) is imported from other countries, that are raising cattle, that are destroying the rainforests. these may not be in the US, but are very important to the global environment and climate.

You said that it would only benefit third world countries, but I don't see what is wrong with that. The issue is not just making food, but how we get it. For instance, I cannot say I am very proud to live in the US. We produce the most garbage and are the most inefficient organisms on this earth. For instance, McDonald's has probably caused just as much deforestation as the lumber industry. Quarter Pounder's come from cattle in South America, the cow pastures down there have come from the slash and burning of Rain Forests. You are right in saying raising cows has streamlined our ability to get food from somewhere. That was the point. But does that mean it's still okay. I think we are going to have to start thinking about the cons of raising livestock for once, and start taking responsibility for all the consequences of eating dead meat.

You are right, eating meat and killing is completely natural and unavoidable, in some scenarios. However, I don't think billions of humans should do it, since it is unnecessary. In fact, compare your meat eating habits to that of a bear. A bear eats raw flesh and we eat dead ... stuff. I hope you see that we aren't actually omnivores. We are actually a combination of an herbivore and a decomposer. Also, we began eating meat out of necessity. This explains why we are physiologically capable of digesting meat (are system can't deal with it well, but we can, because lets face it, high intake amounts of meat is linked to an increased risk in heart disease and cancer). But now the necessity is gone. Bears and monkeys and baboons they eat meat for necessity every so often. Lions they eat meat out of pure and absolute necessity all the time. We do not. Our original physiology is vegetarian. We have adapted to eat meat, because at some point in time it was the only option to survive. But who says we should keep doing it. Just because it's been done for thousands of years doesn't mean it's okay. Think of this one, slavery is an old practice. we finally we got rid of that practice just 150 years ago in the states. we discovered it was wrong, and that it was unnecessary, and abolished it.

Your statement about how humans require meat is false. It is true that the fuckin airhead trendies who just stop eating meat but don't alter their diet are going to have nutritional problems going along with there already evident anorexia (i often link this to the same group), but Medical studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans are as healthy and often healthier.

I like your open mindedness of plants perhaps feeling pain. This is a very good thought, I doubt we could ever figure out if a plant feels pain or some derivative of pain. But why do you close your mind when you say there is a difference between eating a cow and eating a human? Who says we are better than animals? Who says animals don't feel pain. Do you like to beat the shit out of your dog? Or is that cruel? Let's go back to my thoughts of eating you. Wouldn't you feel that you are being taken advantage of and treated cruelly because you can't fight me off if i had a tazer or gun that will kill you, and then i'll just throw you in the oven and consume you. I say humans are just as much any other animal. We are more alike then you would probably like to think. In our society murder of another humans is morally wrong. What's the difference. As for drawing the line, I say try as hard as you can to not cause cruelty or death to any living organism that can experience pain. I would say you have gone a long way, if we just try.

Let me mention again that I seriously enjoyed your thoughts on whether plants felt pain also. But all I can say for now is, that it is obvious that cows and other animals endure suffering, thus I don't want to put them through that. Currently, the scientific theory is that if you have a nervous system you feel pain, grief, suffering, again plants don't have this. Killing of animals for the taste of flesh, for wealth, for looks, is just negative energy. Do you now see how much eating meat effects our lives, and that not eating it would dramatically improve the world we live in. Of course I don't suggest laws against animal murder. We don't have enough police force to solve current homicides. I'm just asking for a new social frame of mind.

I hope I have not crossed any lines for you, because I look forward to your reply. About your comment about the punks and bumper stickers, I am into the punk scene I guess, and it kind of sucks hearing bands and people I admire having an opposing view. I just don't let it get to me. What are your thoughts? I think we are getting to the point where we might have to find some FACTS. I am using quite a bit of data that is coming from my head, not from recognized astrophysicist's papers.

Aaron, I really don't see why you are concerned with an "ecological energy crisis." Maybe you don't realize it, but in the United States the population is extremely controlled, and there is not a risk of a population explosion. Last I heard, the doubling time for our population was something like 150 years, a very safe number. So we Americans might as well use our advantages and eat meat. I don't understand why food would be cheaper, either. I'm pretty sure the prices of vegetables would remain the same if that's what everyone only ate. My point is that if everyone one in the United States did eat only vegetables, and were more "efficient" those starving would not benefit. Farmers would produce enough food for the population able to buy it, and they would not grow large amounts of surplus that could be used to feed the hungry.

As for garbage, that has nothing to do with eating meat. Very little of our garbage is food products, either plant or animal. McDonald's beef isn't good for the rain forest, but neither is burning down acres for farmland to be used once.

Eating higher on the food chain is something we do because it is in our nature to do it Not that humans are anything like carnivores. Look at the FDA's food pyramid, the food/grain group is by far the largest, at 8-10 servings a day. Meat is only 2-3. Meat is something to eat a little of each day, to get the nutrients necessary. And I'm not talking about the trendy 14 year old girls who live on french fries. Meat has necessary nutrients, just like milk and other dairy products do. You just can't compare eating meat to slavery. If you believe evolution, then we are descended from apes, also omnivores, which gave never been known to practice slavery. Food is also far more important to survival than slavery ever was.

You keep bringing up the "its wrong to kill line" which I think is completely false. If you're saying that killing an animal is as bad as killing a human, where do you draw the line? Do you protest use of pesticides on plants because it kills insects? By your logic one would have to hold insects in just as high of a regard. Then, why not take this one step further, and apply it to plants, and say its wrong to kill them? If you are a Christian, you will remember that Jesus ate meat, which I certainly think is moral justification for killing an animal. Put cynically, it is highly ideological and very naive to think that you can end suffering for anything living.

As for the biology of things, while insects do not have a circulatory system, they are highly evolved in their own right and have a central collection of nervous cells similar to our spinal cord. Biologically, it is very possible that they feel pain. Unless you are some sort of freak nut vegan, I really doubt you think much about it when you find an ant crawling around in your house. And concerning the pain issue, the way animals are slaughtered is much more painless and quick than if we had to hunt down all our food, or like I mentioned before, the animal was torn apart by a bear. And I'll have to add again, that there might by those who are just as opposed to killing plants on the same moral grounds. If you think about it, plants, really get the suffering, because everything feeds off of them.

Hey, I've got nothing against the punk scene, I'm kind of into it myself I guess, but the stupidity of people just never stops. As for me, I don't mind people being vegetarians, its kind of annoying I guess, but it doesn't get to me. What does bother me is vegetarians who think they are better than me because they don't eat meat and insist on trying to convert me. This is equivalent to some religious nut insisting that you must convert to be saved.

Brendan, Sorry it has taken me so long to write back. I had a project to do. You can check it out: http://vetc.vsc.edu/vuhs/apbio/clone we can start a debate on cloning perhaps (or maybe we shouldn't)? I also got a little frustrated with some of your comments. However some of them made me extremely interested to continue the debate.

I am concerned with an ecological energy crisis because we may frickin screw up the planet. I agree the United States population is well controlled compared to others. But why does that allow us to eat meat. Why don't we conserve energy anyway. In case you haven't noticed environmental conditions in the states are not up to par. we are have the worst environmental record (i think), with lots of emmisions) Using less land for livestock allows more land for forests, or plains. This will improve everything around us! Food would be cheaper because we could probably make a larger supply thus food is easier to come by. Who says we should burn down rainforest for one use as farmland? That wouldn't make any sense. Who says using farmland once is the only way to go. The farming industry is getting pretty smart all over the world, I think they could solve that problem. By being more efficient by growing plants for direct human consumption would allow for less land to be used. You are probably right, our conversation doesn't have a lot to do with garbage, I was just proving that we are highly inefficient people in the US. I guess the fact that if surplus of food was produced and whether we would give it to other countries is a matter of opinion. I bet you would be amazed to know that there is already a hunger problem in the US. If we could lower prices, lower classes could begin to eat. Where does it say that it is in our nature to eat meat. It is possible to eat meat, but does that mean it's okay. People can enslave others, but of course that is wrong. You said meat provides necessary nutrients, this is not true one bit. Go here: http://www.americanheart.org/Heart_and_Stroke_A_Z_Guide/vegdiet.html I am not comparing eating meat and slaver as closely as you say. Of course eating is more important than slavery. Slavery has never used been out of neccessity. and currently eating meat at not a neccessity.

So you say there should be no attempt to stop the killing of those who feel pain, just because there is no line to draw? How about you make an effort to try your best not too, like I explained already. I think we could all be better if we could take a step in not causing harm to other animals. i'm not talking about laws that institute insect killing as murder. but have values and morals as a society that stomping on ants is just stupid. If you believe evolution you would recognize that we are no different animals than any others, in fact we are animals. and to think that we can raise other animals for food is no different than eating my next door neighbors. I don't live in a perfect world, but I will try not to kill anything with a brain. And that is as definite as a line I can draw. At this point, I believe the scientists who say that the only things which can suffer pain are those who have nervous systems. What the hell is wrong with holding insects in just as high of regard? If your wondering if I swat bugs anymore, I try not to. I'll either bring it outside, or if it's a spider, let it live and eat other mosquitos because it needs to in order to survive. I am an agnostic and the fact that you think just because Jesus ate meat means it is justified, is crap. Jesus called the Jew's (disbelievers in christ) the son's of satan, and prompted others (ex. Hitler) to conduct crimes against humanity because they thought they could make Jesus happy. your right, it is ideological to stop killing all living things with nervous systems, but we have to make an effort. Or are we once again to lazy. You are right, people shouldn't think they are better because they don't eat meat. Cause perhaps it is your religious belief to eat meat. But come on, who takes the bible or religious text word for word? We are talking common sense here. when I think of conversion I think of the use of force or other means to make others believe in something else. I think what is occurring is much more mature and new than religoius conversion. But don't stop getting annoyed by losers who don't know why they are vegetarian. get annoyed by how society acts for no reason at all.

aaron